You Gotta Be Able to Maximize Your Own Value

This week, I’m excited to bring you an interview with Danny Wang. I actually met Danny at a local playground; it was only after our families became friends that I discovered he’d been a classroom teacher. Danny is always thoughtful and generous with his time (and anyone who orders chicken feet at dim sum is okay by me), so I was happy to sit down with him and learn more about his journey.

Introduce yourself! Give us your name, location, number of years you spent teaching, what subject and grade level you taught, and number of years since you’ve left teaching.

I’m Danny Wang. I live in Los Angeles. I spent nine and a half years in special education, across grade levels K through 10. I left in 2014, so it’s been 10 years–wow!

Why did you become a teacher?

Right after college, I moved to Seattle, thinking I was going to play music and hang out. And that wasn't really working out. I had a buddy who did direct care with developmentally disabled adults, so I started doing that. And I did enjoy working with folks with special needs, so I went into it thinking like, Well, maybe I’ll do something kind of adjacent to this. 

So when I moved back down to LA, I started applying for teacher assistant positions for students with special needs, and got hired at Five Acres public school, and essentially just worked my way up from TA, went back to school, got my Level One credential… And I just became a full-time special ed teacher, going into it thinking, you know, I want to make a positive impact with students who are at-risk. 

Briefly describe your experience teaching. 

I taught at a non-public school that was a Level 12 residential treatment facility. The majority of the referrals who lived on campus were from the Department of Children And Family Services or the Department of Mental Health. So either, like, their parents were incarcerated, or they were found as transient students who were homeless, or who didn't have a living situation. They were severely abused, so CFS would remove them from the home... They were kids who’d failed multiple false foster placements. So usually they would go to us, and then either hospitalization or something like California Youth Authority, if it was really bad. So typically I would work with emotional disturbance as IEP classification. So really high needs, super high needs. Not necessarily in terms of cognitive abilities, although some were listed as having learning disability according to their IEPs, but it was predominantly emotional disturbance. 

What did you like about it? 

From strictly an educational standpoint, you do have more flexibilities when you're on a lower rung. You know how, in IDEA and special education law, they talk about most restrictive environments versus least restrictive; we were one of the most restrictive environments, right? But because of that, we had more flexibility in terms of instruction… 

We were able to do a lot of those things in terms of individualization, because we would have such large variances within present levels of performance. So the one-size-fits-all type of teaching method of just direct instruction would not work… You just couldn't, there was no way, right? Based upon the disability of each student being emotional disturbance, if you're not teaching within that whole zone of proximal development, you're going to create a lot of behavioral incidences, like kids are either bored [if it’s too easy] or [acting out] if it's too hard, all that stuff. So one of the things I enjoyed the most was really being able to customize instructional strategies, as well as kind of piecemeal together curriculum that really focused upon individualized instruction.

What did you find challenging or unfulfilling?

So the work environment was very stressful. The kids would get quite violent. We had to do Pro-ACT training, we had to do restraints, and stuff like that. We had higher rooms, protective separation… It was stressful.

In Pasadena Unified, just based upon socio-political issues around that district and more so around that city… we had student population drains directly from our school. And then we would start getting more intense referrals. So yeah, the kind of intensity and frequency of the behaviors that were exhibited within the classroom, coupled with the low pay–it was just too difficult. It was an unmanageable situation.

What brought you to the decision to leave teaching? What was the breaking point?

It was the salary… I was 34 and I wasn't able to accomplish some of the goals I had. So mostly it was the money. Because obviously, teachers don't make a lot of money.

I actually had tried to quit a couple of times, and the principal had talked me into staying. I initially said after the first semester, I would quit… and then they talked me into staying for the rest of the school year. Then they talked me into doing an extended school year, 30 days… They just kept getting me! I mean, part of it's me, right? I was the one who said, Yes, I will continue. 

So it was good eight, nine months that I was actively looking for jobs and applying. I was still teaching, but I was also applying. 

What plans, if any, did you put in place before transitioning out of teaching? How and to what extent did you prepare for your transition? What fears, if any, did you have and how did you face those?

I cast a pretty wide net. So right prior to getting hired as inside sales with McGraw Hill, I actually was offered a position as a case manager through Regional Center South. So that was one route I was potentially going into…

But at that time, I mean, I'll be honest, I was sort of… “greed” isn’t necessarily the right word. But I wanted to maximize personal and economic value, so I knew that would be through a corporate lens. 

So I started also applying anywhere. I would just Google “Houghton Mifflin job,” “Pearson job,” and just go down the list, right? And it was tough at first, because even at that time, in 2014, they had a lot of resume AI screeners, so I would get rejections really quickly after applying for those jobs. And then one day, I got lucky. I was actually given an interview for inside sales with a department called Engrade System. It was a startup that was recently purchased by the McGraw Hill.

What specific factors did you have to consider in your transition? Did you have financial responsibilities, such as dependants, student loan debt, etc? Is there any type of privilege that aided your transition, such as a spouse or family member who supported you, contacts in other industries, an “in” on a job, etc? 

I had about 60 grand in student loan debt at the time. I didn't really have any savings. Really didn't have 401K. I was living with a girlfriend… So I definitely had a financial pressure weighing on me.

Tell us about your first year out of the classroom. What lessons did you learn? What successes did you have? What challenges did you face? What, if anything, would you have done differently?

I think for me, it was a lot of it was luck. Luck and timing. Unfortunately, there are things that are out of our hands. But being able to construct a resume to even get through that screening process, being able to get to that first interview–that was hard. 

But the second portion, once you get hired–that was also pretty hard, because it was kind of a wake-up call for me. I worked in an arm of the company again that was just recently purchased, and so it had a very startupy feel. The office space was on Third Street Promenade, and they had a ping pong table and catered lunches, but also what you envision as the stereotypical startup. You got a lot of perks, but on the other end, it was a lot of hours. You got kind of screwed about certain things. Like, my first couple of years, I didn't have the best boss. I got screwed out of a decent amount of commission checks. And there was nothing I could do about that. 

One of the things that I kind of really try to focus on within that first year, because I was in inside sales, was product knowledge: how to be able to demonstrate product in a way that makes sense and tells a story to potential buyers, which would be school administrators. I was working mainly with site-based decision-making, so, mostly school admin, and then possibly teachers. So, because I had product knowledge, timing and luck, there was a one of the middle managers within the organization who took a chance on me, and I got promoted to district-wide sales. And then once I was working under her, because she was more established with the organization, that's when I was able to capitalize on commissions. 

I remember in the beginning, she gave me a really good piece of advice in terms of just navigating the sales world. And I think this advice is good for any arm within the corporate structure, whether you're in customer success or product [managment] or marketing. But she always said that selling internally is just as important as selling externally. So being able to sell yourself. Which sounds kind of cheesy, you know, even saying it out loud, but you gotta be able to maximize your own value, and be able to communicate that to other people within the organization... You need [to have] a certain feature to be additive in the program, and to have flexibility in terms of movement within your own career, being able to work in other departments or get hired or get promoted. So I think that was really helpful in that first year–creating relationships internally within the organization. Show the value I was able to demonstrate, and again be able to prove that. 

I feel like that's not a thing we think about in teaching. Like, you kind of just get hired and there's the pay scale, and that's kind of what it is. So that’s a hard shift to make? Well, no, it isn't. It isn't. Because I think one way you can relate some of those things is like, in my experience as a special ed teacher, in IEPs, you have to prove why the student did or did not pass their goal. What progress was there? You have to state that case; you have to have data to support if it didn't work. Like, I don't know, “recognize vowels, 80% of the time, on four out of five trials…” So in a way, for educators who are kind of steeped in data, I think it translates actually quite well. Because, I mean, you're quantifying a lot of things within education as well. 

It is culturally a lot different [being in] the corporate world than the teaching world, in the public sphere… I think the flexibility of working within a corporate environment for me, the benefits outweigh… a traditional classroom. 

What are you currently doing for work? What do you like about your current career or job?

I'm a sales rep for McGraw Hill. My territory spans from like West LA County, Southwest LA County, upwards to San Luis Obispo County. I do predominantly core curriculum sales. So you know, math, ELA, science, social studies, things like that… 

So number one, [I like] the team that I work with–so my immediate co-workers, the sales organization. One of the things I remember when I when I got hired, back during my first stint at McGraw Hill, was that I was able to create so many relationships that transcended just a typical professional relationship… There was all these personal relationships I was able to create. 

And so for me, it's just really the people. I really love who I work with. I really love the boss, my my current manager, the boss that I work under. There's people all over the country who I've established relationships with it. And every year when we have our large national sales meeting, everybody gets back together and it's–I don't know. It's hard to explain. The culture of it is, in my opinion, amazing. The people are cool.

What, if anything, could have kept you in the classroom? What, if anything, could ever lure you back?

That's a great question. I don't know if there was really anything. Because, you know, a lot of education is difficult, right? There's a lot of different kind of systems in place, but I don't think they create an opportunity to demonstrate success. Sometimes I think, maybe if I worked in a different population or worked with students who weren't as intensive or as high of need, I would have stayed in the classroom longer. But it just seems like the system isn’t set up in a way to really maximize academic growth for kids.

Even now when we talk about curriculums—for example, right now we're going through like big math framework change where a lot of publishers are gonna be submitting based upon the new frameworks that come out. I think ideologically you have all these really great ideas in terms of education and what should be done… I don't know if that necessarily creates this idea we have of education being this big equalizer where, you know, despite whatever socioeconomic status that you have in the student, just based on doing well in school, you're gonna have like the social mobility. I don't know if that's necessarily true. You know what I mean? 

It's kind of hypocritical for me to say that, right? Now I work at a corporate structure that gets more in to placing profits in school design. Yeah, it's tough… I think there is a way to work within private industry and still make positive impacts for educators, whether it's through empathy, professional development, meeting their needs… But it’s tough.

Finally, what advice, tips or wisdom do you have to share with current teachers considering a career transition? Is there anything in specific you wish you’d known or prepared for?

To be able to get through the resume scanner and get that first interview is the hardest thing. If I was to give advice to teachers who are trying to make that transition, especially into publishing or edtech, [it’s that] these companies want to maximize value, whether it be direct, like straight-up sales or even within more of a customer-success, partner-success advocacy role. Ultimately, your task is to bring in profit, so they want to be able to see that. 

So number one for me, it was being able to figure out, Okay, well, I'm getting knocked out of these screenings based on this. Then, what words can I take from the job description and make sure that is represented within the resume, so I can even get through whatever AI screener that they have? 

And number two is [quantifying your skills.] It’s similar to… doing an IEP meeting, when you're reporting heavily on data. You can translate that skill into your resume and quantify the skills that you have to show that you can maximize value. 

I think for me, LinkedIn has been a pretty good resource. Connect with folks on LinkedIn that possibly are at organizations you're interested in. Maybe you've worked with particular ed tech program or a particular publisher that you actually really enjoyed. Reach out to folks on social networks to connect with them, and see if you can like even have like 10, 15 minutes to pick their brain. I think it would have been easier for me if I knew of someone who had already made that transition, to kind of talk me through that process. So I think that would be a big tip–to connect with people.

The other one is… trying to quantify what you do and demonstrate the value of what you do within an application, because you just want your foot in the door. Like, you just want to have conversations. Take it in small steps, right? The goal is not necessarily, Oh, I see a job. I want to get this job. It’s, I want to get through the screener. Then, Now I got through the screener. Now I have a conversation with whatever HR person. Now I want to get to the first interview. Chunk it out in like very small steps, with that goal of having more conversations and building your network.

And having a larger understanding of what is the best kind of pathway, and of different pathways to meet your professional goals. I know for me, it was difficult. There was a colleague I was working with recently, just kind of like helping her out. She actually wound up going back to the classroom. She made that decision, you know, that “going into the corporate world wasn't for me. I'm going to go back to the classroom.” So she got a job at [a high school]. And she's happy with that. There's so many different pathways, and going back to the classrooms, just maybe even switching schools might be a pathway too.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.